“Many Afghans in Europe support the Taliban:” interview with Shafi Karimi

We met Shafi during the IPI World Congress and Media Innovation Festival in Austria to record an interview in the beautiful offices of the International Press Institute in central Vienna. This conversation is part of our How Come series, in which we speak with people from different countries about the issues that shape our world.

Media freedom in Afghanistan before the Taliban

In the past 20 years [before the return of the Taliban], Afghanistan had been doing much better than many other countries in the region when it came to media freedom. Afghanistan was ahead of Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh, for example.

I remember one day when I was working as a producer for a news programme at Ariana News — one of the most well-known TV networks in Afghanistan. There had been attacks in Kabul, and we invited a relative of one of the victims to speak about what had happened. The man was furious. He went on camera and started insulting the Afghan president, using very harsh language.

I asked my colleagues to stop the broadcast. I thought something might happen, that the government would come after us. By the end of the day, we received a call from the media director at the presidential palace. They reacted quickly, because the channel had a large audience — including government officials who followed it closely. They told us that nothing would happen, because Afghanistan had free media. And if there is freedom, people can come on camera and speak as they want.

For me, this meant a lot. Because if something like this had happened in India, Nepal, Pakistan, Tajikistan, or many other countries, I know how it would have ended. I once asked journalists in Cambodia, “What would happen in a similar situation?” And they said, “Maybe we would be arrested, or the TV channel would be shut down.” But not in Afghanistan [at that time].

However, even with this freedom, the biggest problem for journalists was security. Many of my colleagues were targeted by the Taliban and by ISIS. When I worked at Ariana News for four years, I lost three colleagues who were killed by the Taliban. When I later moved to TOLOnews, I lost ten colleagues after the Taliban attacked a bus carrying our staff. And when I joined Radio Free Europe — my last workplace before leaving Afghanistan — we lost three more colleagues in a Taliban suicide attack near our office.

So there were two realities. On one side, freedom of speech and free media. On the other, a constant threat to journalists’ lives.

Threats from ISIS and the decision to leave Afghanistan

In December 2020, just ten days after my wedding, I received a call from Afghanistan’s National Directorate of Security. A man told me, “Because you made a documentary about ISIS in Achin — where ISIS is very active — a number of journalists have been targeted by ISIS, and you are one of them.”

I told myself that saving my life and the life of my family was the most important thing. So I contacted the Committee to Protect Journalists and decided to leave. But I didn’t know that within six months everything would change in Afghanistan.

I didn’t believe the Taliban could return to power so fast. I remember the day it happened. It was early morning, and I was living in a refugee camp in a small town in France. My father called me. He said that near our home in Kabul, police officers were taking off their uniforms and changing into civilian clothes. I asked him why. He told me that the Taliban were already in Kabul — near our apartment, everywhere. They had come back.

My wife and I cried for an hour. We lost everything. Every time I think about those days, it feels like the darkest moment of my life.

I had worked as a journalist in Afghanistan for more than twelve years. My wife had been a TV presenter for almost eight. People recognised us. They knew we were journalists. It became dangerous for our families to stay in Afghanistan.

We also tried to help colleagues escape. It was hard to carry both responsibilities at the same time. In the end, we managed to help both my family and many colleagues. But there are still many journalists who need help.

Even now, when I see short videos, reels, or photos from my city and my country, it’s hard to explain — but Ukrainians would understand. Physically, I am here. But emotionally, I am always in Afghanistan.

Intimidation and self-censorship in exile

Many people think that if a journalist lives in exile — for example in Europe or the US — then they are safe and everything is fine. But that is not the reality.

Two years ago, we were working on a story about human rights in Afghanistan. We interviewed a woman inside the country, and everything we discussed was critical of the Taliban. My colleague put his name in the byline, because it was published by a free Western media outlet.

When the report came out, the Taliban went to Herat Province, found the journalist’s family, and arrested his father. They warned both the family and the journalist, “If you try to publish something like this against the Taliban again, remember — your family is here.”

That is why many journalists — many of my colleagues living outside Afghanistan, including in Europe — don’t want to write anything against the Taliban, even on social media. If they are in exile but their families are still inside Afghanistan, they simply cannot.

You are constantly forced to choose between your profession and your family’s safety. The Taliban understand this very well. It has become a new way to silence journalists — even in exile.

There are also Afghans living in Europe who lobby for the Taliban. They support them and agree with their rules. In this environment, speaking openly against the Taliban becomes dangerous — even in a democratic country like France.

For example, I live in Paris, and I once interviewed an Afghan athlete, Marzieh Hamidi. That interview created serious problems for both of us. Today, Marzieh is under police protection. After the interview, I received many messages from the Afghan community in France, especially in Paris. People asked me, “Why did you interview someone who comes on camera and speaks against the Taliban?” Even here, in a free democratic country.

Taliban influence inside Europe

The mindset of people doesn’t change easily. I always say this: the US — and also European countries and organisations — were in Afghanistan for 20 years, but the problem was that democracy stayed inside the big cities. Kabul, Herat, Mazar-i-Sharif, Bamiyan — even Kandahar — but not the villages.

Maybe part of the problem was also on the media side. Twenty years was a long time, and perhaps we could have done more to influence people’s thinking — to help them accept progress, democracy, human rights, and freedom of speech. But we didn’t. The focus stayed on the cities.

So when you see Afghans in Europe or the US — not all of them, but some — came from villages. That’s why they don’t agree with these democratic values, and some of them even agree with Taliban rules.

Let me give you an example. Once I was walking in Paris, in a neighbourhood called La Chapelle. La Chapelle is known as “small Kabul,” because a large Afghan community lives there. One day, an Afghan woman was walking there without a head scarf — we call it chador in Afghanistan. Some people stopped her and asked, “Why are you walking in the street without your hair covered?”

For me, this was shocking — because we are living in a democratic country. And yet someone can come here and try to impose Taliban rules on Afghan women even in Europe.

It is difficult for Europe, and also for the US, to protect every single journalist in exile — to give everyone full protection. Of course, they cannot track everything at the same time. But what they can do is this: if someone in Europe is acting as a lobbyist for the Taliban, it is very easy to recognise them — they are usually very active on social media.

People say it is free speech. But when someone comes to a democratic country and supports a terrorist group, that is not free speech.

Who is to blame for the fall of Afghanistan?

Western countries helped Afghanistan for the past 20 years [till 2021]. They know the country very well. The US and the EU spent a lot of money in Afghanistan. But the problem is that the leaders — those who were in charge of the country during those 20 years — did not spend this money on building institutions, but on corruption.

For example, when I worked on investigative reporting about the size of the Afghan national army, no one ever gave real numbers. There were official numbers, but not real numbers. That was one part of the problem.

Another one is that Afghanistan is a traditional country. It has its own traditions — in every city, every village. But the government did not build institutions that explained to people, “this is human rights, this is women’s rights, these are your rights.” And many other things that are very important for a country that wants to improve. They did not do this. That is why we are in this situation now. And that is why today, people inside Afghanistan — not all of them, but some — support the Taliban.

At the same time, let’s not forget that if the Taliban are now in power, it is also because of the US — because of the Doha Agreement. They did not come to power because they fought and won. Afghan soldiers were told to stand down.

I remember that day very clearly. I received many videos. Afghan soldiers were not happy. They were standing there and saying again and again, “We are ready to fight the Taliban.” But there was an agreement in Doha [not to fight].

Also, there was no mobilisation. Even though soldiers were told not to fight, there was no leadership. The Afghan president left the country before everyone else. When Russia attacked Ukraine, the president of Ukraine stayed in the country. I remember when I saw that video of Zelenskyy standing there. And I thought, “this is the kind of president we needed in Afghanistan — someone who stands with the people and gives the order to fight the Taliban.”

People were ready to fight. But because the president left, and no one stood there, there was no leadership. And that is why the Taliban entered Kabul.

Women-led resistance in Afghanistan

In the past 20 years, women had a real presence in Afghanistan’s public life — especially in big cities. In some places it was close to 50/50, we even had a Ministry of Women. Today, that ministry has been transformed into an institution that stops people on the street and questions them about religion and their clothing.

Women also served in the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Interior. We had female athletes, judges, lawyers. During those years, there was strong freedom of speech and much more freedom for women — but mostly in big cities, not in villages.

And this was not because of the Taliban. At that time, villages were not under Taliban control. It was because of families. Many families did not agree that their girls should go to school. In many rural areas, women’s rights — even basic human rights — did not exist. Because of their families, girls did not have the right to be educated, to go to school, or even to leave the house without a family member.

These problems already existed then — but not in the biggest cities. After the Taliban came back, everything changed everywhere.

Now, women are largely banned from public life. They cannot appear on TV in the same way, cannot present programmes with male colleagues, and in many cases must cover their faces. At TOLOnews, where there used to be more than 100 women staff, now there are only three or five.

In government offices, women are almost gone. Some still work in healthcare because it is necessary, but mostly in cities. In villages, the lack of women nurses and doctors is costing lives.

I am proud of the women who are still in Afghanistan and stand against the Taliban. They raise their voices. Just imagine — a woman stands up for her rights and then spends four or six months in Taliban prison. No one wants this. No one wants to be in prison. This is resistance. This gives hope to others. If there is one brave woman, other women can see some light at the end of this darkness — because otherwise, for women, it is very dark now.

I wrote on my social media, “Men of Afghanistan, why don’t you come out of your homes? Why don’t you stand with the women on the streets?” And many told me, “It’s easier for you to speak because you are outside the country.”

But my question is this: women go to the streets and stand in front of the Taliban. The Taliban have weapons. The women have nothing — only their voices. So why not you?

In some cases, this goes back to mindset. A large number of Afghan families — mostly men — agree with some Taliban rules, especially about women’s rights. I’m sorry to say this, but it is not right that men in Afghanistan just watch what is happening. I want to say to them, “think about your daughters.”

At the same time, this also comes from illiteracy and other deep problems in Afghan society. Some people — mostly men — say, “These women who protest are supported by the West or by international organisations.” But that is not true.

This is a young generation of Afghan women. Over the past 20 years, they learned how to defend themselves, how to stand, and how to resist authoritarian regimes.

Russia’s role in supporting the Taliban

About five or six years ago I travelled to the north of Afghanistan, near the borders with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. Russian soldiers were there [during the Soviet invasion].

Local people told me that Russian forces had started bombing their apartments and their village. Still, the men I spoke to said, “We are proud that we fought against the Russian soldiers, because they attacked us and they fought our country. We are still proud of that moment,” even though they lost many family members.

But today, the narratives about that time are divided. The older generation often sees that fight as a struggle for the country, for freedom, and for Islam. They believe that if Russian soldiers had remained in Afghanistan, society would have been changed in a way they did not want.

The younger generation often looks at it differently. Many of them say, “No, it was wrong. Why did the leaders of Afghanistan start fighting with the Russian occupation? They should have stayed in Afghanistan. If they were still there, the situation would be completely different.”

For me, this is an important question: if some people truly believe Russia wanted to “help” Afghanistan, then why don’t they also recognise that there are many ways to help a country — and occupying it, oppressing people, and bombing villages is not one of them.

We also shouldn’t forget that in the last 20 years, Russia was one of the countries — along with Iran and Pakistan — that helped the Taliban, not only financially but also through support like weapons and diplomacy. Russia was the first to accept the Taliban as Afghanistan’s new government, and the first to accept Taliban diplomats — even before Iran, Pakistan, China, and others. That does not look like an effort to help Afghanistan.

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